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General Category => Green Bay Packers News Talk => Topic started by: B on September 12, 2017, 11:00:41 PM

Title: Studs and Duds, Week 1 vs Seahawks
Post by: B on September 12, 2017, 11:00:41 PM
Studs:

OLB Nick Perry played dominate ball on Sunday, in fact PFF scored him the highest performing Packer vs the Seahawks with an 89.8 overall grade, finishing the day with 1.5 sack, 1.5 Tackles for loss, 2 QB hits, and 3 QB hurries. Perhaps even more impressive was that he forced offensive coordinator Bevell to adjust his game plan and blocking scheme in the first series of the game and throughout with double teams and or chips from TE and RBs the rest of the game.

DT Mike Daniels (86.6 PFF score) played like an All Pro on Sunday, standing out like a man among boys on the interior, blowing up running plays in the backfield (7 solo tackles), terrorizing Wilson with 1.5 sacks and 3 QB hurries, and a HUGE forced fumble to set up the Packers first score early in the 2nd half.

Randall Cobb, for at least one week shut up the critics who declare him to be over-payed and under-performing since re-signing with the Packers. Aaron Rodgers has consistently dismissed this criticism of Randall, and on Sunday dealt Cobb 9 receptions for 85 yards (most at key moments). He also played with intense fire throughout even when he was not targeted.

Jordy Nelson, the Packers #1 receiver, out-performed Cobb in the eyes of PFF with an 81.8 overall grade, catching 7-of-8 targets for 79 yards, including a 32-yard touchdown that was nothing short of a thing of beauty. Four of Jordy's seven receptions resulted in a first down, and as stated above a fifth went for a TD.

Duds: (difficult to find this week)

Kick coverage on the opening kick-off that was saved by a big touchdown saving tackle by safety Kentrell Brice

Mike McCarthy helping Seattle with clock management by calling two timeouts setting up the opportunity to kick a FG right before the half.

Feel free to add or subtract your studs and duds to this thread
Title: Re: Studs and Duds, Week 1 vs Seahawks
Post by: Ron836 on September 13, 2017, 05:10:29 AM
Great information B. I like the part about Bevell had to adjust his game plan for Perry. Thanks for that. Perry did start off the game with a bang. I remember the one poster a few years back, wanted to cut Perry for *I believe* some rookie free agent.
Title: Re: Studs and Duds, Week 1 vs Seahawks
Post by: cheech on September 13, 2017, 07:01:17 AM
I remember some poster saying we needed to ditch the 2 gap scheme so Daniels (and Raji at the time) could make plays in the backfield.

I also remember some poster saying that Perry was about to break out and that we should dump Peppers so we could make sure he was re-signed. 

Neither were popular opinions because neither player had broken out yet. 
Title: Re: Studs and Duds, Week 1 vs Seahawks
Post by: B on September 13, 2017, 07:26:18 AM
For what it is worth:

I'm quite certain some will be surprised to learn that RG Jahri Evans, was the highest graded offensive lineman for the Packers in the opener vs Seattle with a PFF 79.1 overall grade
Title: Re: Studs and Duds, Week 1 vs Seahawks
Post by: Kepler on September 13, 2017, 09:11:41 AM
For what it is worth:

I'm quite certain some will be surprised to learn that RG Jahri Evans, was the highest graded offensive lineman for the Packers in the opener vs Seattle with a PFF 79.1 overall grade

That is pretty shocking. I thought Bak and Taylor played better. Linsley botched that one snap though. I would have guessed Evans was rated third or fourth, but then again I am definitely no expert.
Title: Re: Studs and Duds, Week 1 vs Seahawks
Post by: IBV on September 13, 2017, 10:09:04 AM
I'll throw this in , it looks like Teddy finally found a Punter !!
Title: Re: Studs and Duds, Week 1 vs Seahawks
Post by: B on September 13, 2017, 10:55:05 AM
For what it is worth:

I'm quite certain some will be surprised to learn that RG Jahri Evans, was the highest graded offensive lineman for the Packers in the opener vs Seattle with a PFF 79.1 overall grade

That is pretty shocking. I thought Bak and Taylor played better. Linsley botched that one snap though. I would have guessed Evans was rated third or fourth, but then again I am definitely no expert.

I was surprised as well. I always take PFF ratings with a grain of salt, but they do make a serious attempt at objective grading and evaluation.
Title: Re: Studs and Duds, Week 1 vs Seahawks
Post by: SSG on September 13, 2017, 02:13:45 PM
It's funny how PFF is so aggressively trashed as garbage when the game ratings are low but are used as proof of good performances when the rating are positive.

I don't really use them much anymore because they priced the average fan out of their services but they've been called every nasty name you can find on this sight when the ratings weren't high.
Title: Re: Studs and Duds, Week 1 vs Seahawks
Post by: SDProfessor on September 13, 2017, 02:19:27 PM
It's funny how PFF is so aggressively trashed as garbage when the game ratings are low but are used as proof of good performances when the rating are positive.

I don't really use them much anymore because they priced the average fan out of their services but they've been called every nasty name you can find on this sight when the ratings weren't high.

Compared to baseball, the NFL is way behind in finding innovative ways of quantifying/qualifying player performance. PFF is flawed, but it's the best we have IMO. Only alternative is "anonymous scout".
Title: Re: Studs and Duds, Week 1 vs Seahawks
Post by: B on September 13, 2017, 03:26:13 PM
It's funny how PFF is so aggressively trashed as garbage when the game ratings are low but are used as proof of good performances when the rating are positive.

I don't really use them much anymore because they priced the average fan out of their services but they've been called every nasty name you can find on this sight when the ratings weren't high.

Thus the for what it's worth and taken with a grain of salt comments SSG
Title: Re: Studs and Duds, Week 1 vs Seahawks
Post by: Twain on September 13, 2017, 03:45:00 PM
I have watched the game about 5 times already, and am getting ready to watch it again now that the all 22 view is out.

One time I spent the offensive snaps just watching Jahri Evans.  I thought he played well.

That was a tough defensive front for Seattle, and each and every one of the linemen made mistakes at times.  I think the conclusion that Evans was a weak link hasn't been supported when I have watched specifically his play.


With regards to SSG's comment, he is right- we all use a lot of confirmation bias in these discussions- we ignore the stuff that doesn't agree with our point of view, and accept the stuff that does.  The use of PFF data is no different.  The board is a good example of the Dunning Kruger effect, and confirmation bias is a big part of that.  We all do it.

I don't like PFF, and I don't choose to use it.  I just watch the games myself and make my own evaluation, because as pointed out, like everybody else I think I am much better at these evaluations than I am. ;D

Title: Re: Studs and Duds, Week 1 vs Seahawks
Post by: Bignutz on September 13, 2017, 03:48:08 PM
I'll throw this in , it looks like Teddy finally found a Punter !!

Amen to that!
Title: Re: Studs and Duds, Week 1 vs Seahawks
Post by: Shanedorf on September 13, 2017, 04:16:40 PM
One time I spent the offensive snaps just watching Jahri Evans.  I thought he played well.
That was a tough defensive front for Seattle, and each and every one of the linemen made mistakes at times.  I think the conclusion that Evans was a weak link hasn't been supported when I have watched specifically his play.


... like everybody else I think I am much better at these evaluations than I am.

Good stuff Twain and thanks for sharing your re-view of the game. Evans was in a really tough spot- both because of the defense they faced and because he had to acclimate to Murphy after investing precious time getting in sync with Bulaga.

We all suffer from our love of our own opinions, its just human nature.
But when ya back it up with film study, I'm happy to give your opinions additional credibility... thumbsup)
Title: Re: Studs and Duds, Week 1 vs Seahawks
Post by: cheech on September 13, 2017, 04:41:09 PM
It's funny how PFF is so aggressively trashed as garbage when the game ratings are low but are used as proof of good performances when the rating are positive.

I don't really use them much anymore because they priced the average fan out of their services but they've been called every nasty name you can find on this sight when the ratings weren't high.

Last year Geoff Schwartz had a podcast where he discussed the limitations of PFF and grading OL in particular.  Essentially, he said that if you don't know the assignments on a particular play, there is no way that you can accurately grade an OL.  I can't find the link back, but there is this:
@geoffschwartz
Please don't use PFF grades when we discuss OL play.

Also, I find it mind boggling that PFF can come out with grades 1-2 hours after a game is completed when they don't even have access to the coaches' tape at that point. 

I like the concept, and I'm sure they are doing what they can to improve their grading, but I'm going to trust my eyes before I trust a score. 


In the case of Evans - we all saw the same thing.  He struggled at times both in pass protection and in the running game.  When we had Lang and Sitton, Rodgers had room to step up in the pocket if need be.  He was awarded no such room with Evans at OG.  The screen game is largely limited to the left side because Evans just can't get out there to make a lead block.  As a result, the playbook is limited. 

Now, it is possible that Evans will perform the tasks that he is capable of very well.  He could stay in front of his guy the entire game and he could score high on PFF's grading scale.  We need to treat that with some hesitation, though, because the coaches know his limitations and obviously aren't going to let those limitations expose the offense to setbacks.  Another example... Seattle isn't going to ask Jimmy Graham to block the entire game because he CLEARLY can't.  He would be rated as one of the worst TE's in the game if this were the case.  Instead, they are going to split him out more often than not (putting him in a position to maximize his talent) where he might have some really high PFF grades because he can impact the game vertically.  Again - we can't assign a value to a player based off of that PFF score simply because there could be a completely different facet of the game where that player struggles immensely and he just isn't put in that situation often enough to get "dinged" by PFF. 
Title: Re: Studs and Duds, Week 1 vs Seahawks
Post by: Leader on September 13, 2017, 04:41:46 PM
We all suffer from our love of our own opinions, its just human nature.

Then I must not be human cause I hate my own opinion....primarily because its right all the time!
You have any idea how hard it is being right all the time? Its quite a burden to bear  :)
Title: Re: Studs and Duds, Week 1 vs Seahawks
Post by: dannobanano on September 13, 2017, 05:06:21 PM
We all suffer from our love of our own opinions, its just human nature.

Then I must not be human cause I hate my own opinion....primarily because its right all the time!
You have any idea how hard it is being right all the time? Its quite a burden to bear  :)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Leo_of_Catania.jpg)
Title: Re: Studs and Duds, Week 1 vs Seahawks
Post by: cheech on September 13, 2017, 06:15:09 PM
We all suffer from our love of our own opinions, its just human nature.

Then I must not be human cause I hate my own opinion....primarily because its right all the time!
You have any idea how hard it is being right all the time? Its quite a burden to bear  :)

You do realize my tag has nothing to do with my opinion of myself.  It was a complaint written by someone else that was part of my being placed on the watch list.  I now wear it as a badge of honor.
Title: Re: Studs and Duds, Week 1 vs Seahawks
Post by: Twain on September 13, 2017, 07:23:47 PM

In the case of Evans - we all saw the same thing.  He struggled at times both in pass protection and in the running game.  When we had Lang and Sitton, Rodgers had room to step up in the pocket if need be.  He was awarded no such room with Evans at OG.  The screen game is largely limited to the left side because Evans just can't get out there to make a lead block.  As a result, the playbook is limited. 


Apparently we didn't see the same the same thing. 

The inability to step up into the pocket involved a lot more than Evans.  Taylor and Linsley had problems holding their ground as well, and I didn't detect any extra help for Evans.  Personally, I thought Linsley had one of his worst games in a long time- put the snap on the ground, whiffed on several blocks, and didn't hold up as well as usual to the bull rush.

On the screen run to the right in the third quarter, Evans got out to block fine. I don't know why you feel he can't. Linsley was the guy who whiffed on his block.  Evans was out in time to head off the first defender who might have totally blown up the play otherwise. 

Evans did have two holding plays in the third quarter.  The first was precipitated by Montgomery tripping Evans while he had his guy well blocked, and Evans wisely held his man to keep Rodgers from getting killed.  That one is pretty clearly on Montgomery.

The second one came when Richardson finally beats him after over 4 seconds.  That one was on Evans. Given that he got a heavy dose of Richardson and Bennett all day, he didn't give up much.

The big problem was that the line wasn't dealing well with the stunts.  Murphy did reasonably well for a first start, but when the tackle faked inside and looped around, Evans picked up the DE but Murphy failed to recognize it early enough, and was late getting off the end to pick up the tackle.  The left side struggled with the various stunts and overload situations as well.

The good news is that most of these issues will get better as the line plays more together and Murphy gets more experience or Bulaga gets healthy and can play again.  Also, I don't think we see as talented a defensive front again unless we meet Seattle in the playoffs.



Title: Re: Studs and Duds, Week 1 vs Seahawks
Post by: B on September 13, 2017, 07:34:01 PM
I've never been a big OFF guy and have always said so.

T.J. Lang recently weighed in on PFF:

Pro Football Focus has always been kind to TJ Lang.

TJ Lang does not care for Pro Football Focus.

In fact, he thinks the advanced analysis website is “absolute garbage,” especially when it comes to grading linemen.

“My opinion is there’s no way you can possibly accurately grade offensive linemen if you haven’t done that job before in your life. A lot of these guys, they’re not qualified to be grading NFL players,” Lang told the Valenti Show on 97.1 The Ticket. “A lot of the stuff I realize is pretty basic, obvious information. If I clearly just get whooped and let up a sack, you can say, ‘Yeah, that guy let up a sack.'”

Otherwise, he believes, the so-called experts are in over their heads.

“But they don’t know anything about identification, what offensive linemen are supposed to do. They think if a guy blitzes off the edge, that’s automatically the tackle’s block, but a lot of times that’s not the case. They’ve always graded me well, which I don’t mind, but I still don’t respect it,” Lang said.

Apparently, most NFL players feel the same way.
Title: Re: Studs and Duds, Week 1 vs Seahawks
Post by: Twain on September 13, 2017, 07:36:32 PM
Here is the Link B:

http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2017/09/13/tj-lang-pro-football-focus-is-absolute-garbage/

The implication is that we as fans are pretty limited in our analysis as well, which is probably true.
Title: Re: Studs and Duds, Week 1 vs Seahawks
Post by: Twain on September 13, 2017, 07:47:41 PM
On a lighter note, watching the all 22 I saw a play in the first quarter where Davante Adams put a double move on Sherman and got well beyond him.  Rodgers wasn't going that way, but it was nice to see Sherman burned.

Title: Re: Studs and Duds, Week 1 vs Seahawks
Post by: mikebpackfan on September 13, 2017, 07:53:57 PM

With regards to SSG's comment, he is right- we all use a lot of confirmation bias in these discussions- we ignore the stuff that doesn't agree with our point of view, and accept the stuff that does.  The use of PFF data is no different.  The board is a good example of the Dunning Kruger effect, and confirmation bias is a big part of that.  We all do it.

SSG is falling into a different logical fallacy, which, if it has a name, I don't know it.  I hear it all the time.  There is a large group of people (in this case Packers fans) which he has decided don't like PFF, because of the comments of a few.  Then he gets upset at the apparent inconsistency of some Packer fans liking PFF.  Except it is not necessarily inconsistent:  there may be many fans who like PFF and many who don't.  The sportswriters also do this all the time, claim fans are fickle because when we are losing they hear lots of shouts for the firing of this coach and that coach.  Then we win a game and they hear that coach is a genius and then they are upset: fans can't have it both ways.  Except, it's quite possible that it is different fans and there is nothing inconsistent about many of them wanting the coach fired and many different fans liking the coach. 
Title: Re: Studs and Duds, Week 1 vs Seahawks
Post by: cheech on September 13, 2017, 08:42:00 PM

In the case of Evans - we all saw the same thing.  He struggled at times both in pass protection and in the running game.  When we had Lang and Sitton, Rodgers had room to step up in the pocket if need be.  He was awarded no such room with Evans at OG.  The screen game is largely limited to the left side because Evans just can't get out there to make a lead block.  As a result, the playbook is limited. 


Apparently we didn't see the same the same thing. 

The inability to step up into the pocket involved a lot more than Evans.  Taylor and Linsley had problems holding their ground as well, and I didn't detect any extra help for Evans.  Personally, I thought Linsley had one of his worst games in a long time- put the snap on the ground, whiffed on several blocks, and didn't hold up as well as usual to the bull rush.

On the screen run to the right in the third quarter, Evans got out to block fine. I don't know why you feel he can't. Linsley was the guy who whiffed on his block.  Evans was out in time to head off the first defender who might have totally blown up the play otherwise. 

Evans did have two holding plays in the third quarter.  The first was precipitated by Montgomery tripping Evans while he had his guy well blocked, and Evans wisely held his man to keep Rodgers from getting killed.  That one is pretty clearly on Montgomery.

The second one came when Richardson finally beats him after over 4 seconds.  That one was on Evans. Given that he got a heavy dose of Richardson and Bennett all day, he didn't give up much.

The big problem was that the line wasn't dealing well with the stunts.  Murphy did reasonably well for a first start, but when the tackle faked inside and looped around, Evans picked up the DE but Murphy failed to recognize it early enough, and was late getting off the end to pick up the tackle.  The left side struggled with the various stunts and overload situations as well.

The good news is that most of these issues will get better as the line plays more together and Murphy gets more experience or Bulaga gets healthy and can play again.  Also, I don't think we see as talented a defensive front again unless we meet Seattle in the playoffs.

#Invalid YouTube Link#
https://youtu.be/Hysmi_nsXq4 (https://youtu.be/Hysmi_nsXq4)

Not every play here, but the best i could find.  If you don't see a limited player, then I think we'll have to revisit that definition.  He can stay in front of his man just fine.  He has an anchor without a doubt.  But he. Can't. Move.
Title: Re: Studs and Duds, Week 1 vs Seahawks
Post by: B on September 13, 2017, 09:14:04 PM
We've kind of gotten off topic here.

I thought our young middle linebackers Ryan and Martinez stood out in the times that they were in the game, both recording tackles for losses.
Title: Re: Studs and Duds, Week 1 vs Seahawks
Post by: Shanedorf on September 14, 2017, 03:16:43 PM
We've kind of gotten off topic here.

I thought our young middle linebackers Ryan and Martinez stood out in the times that they were in the game, both recording tackles for losses.

Ryan didn't get much action, but he made some plays- including helping out on the Eddie Lacy TFL. Martinez got a lot of snaps, while Joe Thomas didn't. What will be the mix this weekend ?
Title: Re: Studs and Duds, Week 1 vs Seahawks
Post by: B on September 16, 2017, 06:55:03 AM
Studs:

OLB Nick Perry played dominate ball on Sunday...

A great breakdown of this impressive performance van be found below. Definitely worth the time...

https://www.acmepackingcompany.com/platform/amp/2017/9/14/16303624/packers-film-study-week-1-why-it-worked-have-a-day-nick-perry
Title: Re: Studs and Duds, Week 1 vs Seahawks
Post by: craig on September 16, 2017, 09:32:39 AM
Thanks, B, that's really nice detailed breakdown.  Helpful. 
Title: Re: Studs and Duds, Week 1 vs Seahawks
Post by: B on September 21, 2017, 07:25:49 AM
Always happy to share a good read Craig. By the way thanks for your many contributions to this site.